3/9/2004 (7a, US/Eastern) chat transcript #zope
ZCBrian: 'morning
hadar: 'morning :-)
hadar: FYI, Rob Page is sacrificing himself for the good of Zope Corporation, and spending the entire week in Hawaii with a customer. Since it's 2am there, he's asked me to fill in for the type of questions he would normally answer. Be gentle with me :-)
huima: It seems that for today everones main issue is just to concentrate on their todo-lists ,-)
ZCBrian: looks like it
hadar: Perhaps there are no issues left in the Zope Community? ;-)
JimFulton: We should have sent a reminder yesterday
huima: True. It would be good to have a reminder and proposed agenda, if needed
niaarfff: Proud to announce zope.ma, maroccan zope community site
JimFulton: Yay! :)
huima: One question to ZC goes about cmf.zope.org and it's contents move to zope.org
Damascene: hm. search engiens can naturally nail "index_html" it's just that he dosnt want to loose his existing webhits, right?
hadar: I'll blame Rob for not sending the reminder, since he left for Hawaii on Saturday...
huima: Will that be happening in anytime soon or somewhere in distant future?
ZCBrian: huima: yes, that's the plan (move it to zope.org), just haven't had time yet
niaarfff: Proud to announce zope.ma, maroccan zope community site!
ZCBrian: any volunteers to help would be much appreciated ;)
huima: ZCBrian: you could put that to email lists and zopezen, and someone might notice that. I just asked since I noticed someone asking it on zope@zope.org mailiglist
ZCBrian: I can do that - I also need to reiterate the call for volunteers... re: http://www.zope.org/About/ I've gotten no feedback at all so far ;( (typing one-handed BTW, feeding the baby - replies might be a little slow...)
huima: Question about Zope 3. How and when will ZC be putting Zope 3 into customer projects, how do you see it coming along compared to Z2.
Damascene: they say good things about zope 3. ;) rather i heard good things about zope3
JimFulton: We are already puting Zope into customer projects currently, this is via "Franken-Zope" The mixture of Z2 and Z3 Right now, I and a number of non-ZC folks are working very hard on Zope X3.0. We're very exceited about this release because it will allow more people, including ZC, to work on Z3 in their "day jobs". :) To make X3.0 happen sooner, we're limiting the scope to include existing features for file-system-based development.
Damascene: ah so you can finally edit files directly!
JimFulton: I'm confident we'll see a beta and hopeful we'll see a final this spring. I don't know what you mean
Damascene: instead of using the web frontend? well i'm used to the frontend now anyuway heh
JimFulton: You gave always been able to edit files directly when doing file-system-based development in Zope. Even web-based-development allows direct editing in a variety of ways in Z2 and Z3, including external editor, WebDAV and FTP.
JimFulton: s/You gave/You have
arnarl: What features/refactorings remain before Zope X3.0?
JimFulton: looks up url http://cvs.zope.org/Zope3/doc/TODO.txt?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
arnarl: What will the event service look like? We have implemented something similar to the Java Delegation Event Model for our applications Will this be based on global channels, or can we connect individual objects?
JimFulton: Steve Alexander and Marius Gedminus are working on a proposal for an event-service simplification
MacYET: re
JimFulton: You can look at the existing event system to get an idea of what will be supported. See also:
JimFulton: http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/z3tut6.pdf for a spplication-programmer's tutorial on events and: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2003-December/009179.html (this should be a proposal, sigh)
arnarl: Another thing that I found extremely interesting from Zope 3 was the ParentGeddon... We have built a topicmap engine on top of Zope and CMF. This uses direct references, and a longtime performance problem has been wrapping objects in security context.
JimFulton: for a description of plans to allow both type-based and instance-based object-event subscriptions.
arnarl: We even went so far as to MonkeyPatch ObjectManager and SimpleItem to add support for __parent__ in Zope 2
Damascene: monkeypatch?
arnarl: How is wrapping of direct references handled in Zope 3?
JimFulton: I don't know what you mean.
arnarl: Damascene: Dynamically extend other classes at runtime
JimFulton: A security policy has rules for deciding whether an access is possible.
arnarl: I have an object at /path1/object, with a reference to/path2/object2 today I need to traverse from the root to retrieve object2
JimFulton: The default policy uses __parent__ attrs to find containers and thus container-associated grants The security checks and the references are orthogonal
JimFulton: In Zope 3, security policies are highly pluggable. A different policy could take a very different approach
arnarl: So if I store a python reference like this: self._other_content= aq_base(other_content)
JimFulton: There are no acquisition wrappers in Zope 3. :)
arnarl: ahm... :-) mindbending... :)
JimFulton: With the default security policy, the access is goverened by the object's canonical location, as defined by it's __parent__.
arnarl: How does an object have a path then?
JimFulton: You can compute an object You can compute an object's path via it's __parent__ and __name__ attrs
arnarl: ah, and no longer a need to root each request in the request container?
JimFulton: (mindunbending ;)
arnarl: he he, it sounds simpler has resortet to ungodly hacks to make his app go faster resorted
JimFulton: right, persentation objects have request's passed to their constructors. Non-presentation objects don't need requests. See the tutorial or the book We are very lucky to have Z2. It's good enough that we've had the luxury to take our time with Z3. This is a big deal.
MacYET: long live z2
JimFulton: :)
MacYET: it sucks in many ways but it pays my bills :)
hadar: Ours too, so it ain't going away any time soon ;-)
JimFulton: It rocks in many ways too, so people still have a good time working with it.
MacYET: it rocks so much that we are currently building our complete company cms with zope
Damascene: how does z2 suck?
arnarl: Indeed. In my 2.5 year short professional career I have been fortunate enough to work with only Zope 2. :-)
Damascene: i mean i suppose it has some issues but it's still seems better compared to what's out there (and for the cost)
MrTopf: hey, take Java, they have portlets with 140 pages of api description ;-)
Theuni: MrTopf: that's hello world, hmm?
JimFulton: Damascene: suck == issues :)
MrTopf: that's a box with some html inside it
arnarl: Damascene: There are issues like an object doesn't know about its parent
MacYET: Damascene: in general it rocks if you watch at its features
MrTopf: I wonder how many pages the really important things might have
MacYET: but a lot of thing are annonying
arnarl: or performance
MacYET: mostly because of the implementation
Damascene: so MacYET is being a bit picky. ;) does zope3 satisfy your requirements?
MrTopf: yeah, performance is not that great..
arnarl: ZEO is great though
MacYET: Damascene: zope3 is not an alternative, yet
Damascene: ZERO? er. ZEO?
arnarl: And no licensing means that customers can throw hardware at a problem
Damascene: MacYET: I know, but at least it's good to know something is cooking that fits your needs rather than a new thing that... won't and isn't out yet. ;)
MrTopf: ok, ZEO helps to cope with the performance problem but is not really the solution ;-) as is caching
Damascene: true, for large scale stuff i would imagine zope to be painfu in perf. good thing i'm doing a small app haha ;)
MrTopf: though I dunno what the alternative might be.. Java? probably not
JimFulton: Dynamic systems are slower than static ones.
Damascene: of course, but even compared to other dynamic systems, no?
JimFulton: A trick for performance is to figure out what parts of your app are actually static and figure out how to cache or bake those
Damascene: bake? you mean like hooks into python->c libs?
MrTopf: as said, I don't see that as the real solution.. we are doing that, so that's ok.. but neverthelesse
JimFulton: I don't know how zope stacks up to other dynamic systems. It probably depends a lot on the application and what it's doing.
Damascene: i want a solution where i can double click and the entire thing just works. ;)
JimFulton: bake == write pages to and server from file-system
Damascene: oh yeah i do that for all my images although i guses taht hurts sinc ei can'd do neat tricks to dynamicaly generate imagelinks hmm
JimFulton: Damascene: you need Martijn Faassen's grok function. ;)
MrTopf: ok, problem might be there when there are mixed pages with static and dynamic content
JimFulton: With a good cache design, you can often have your cake and eat it to, since the underlying app is consistently dynamic
arnarl: Have Zope corporation used ESI and squid 3 in any projects yet?
JimFulton: Surprizingly, no
MrTopf: is it planned?
dataflake: That's partly due to the slowness of Squid3 development
JimFulton: Squid 3 wasn't ready in time for a project we really wanted it for.
dataflake: Its certainly planned
MrTopf: I would like to hear some opinions about how stable it is which problems it makes etc.
dataflake: Squid3 is not at a stable release. That's all the information I need ;)
JimFulton: NZO would be another good place to try it out. Sigh, so many cool projects, so little time.
MrTopf: same here ;-)
dataflake: Robert Collins got swamped with work apparently and that has slowed Squid3 progress to a crawl We tried baiting him with money, but even that hasn't worked yet...
JimFulton: That would be a great opportunity for someone who wanted to help out with zope.org and try out ESI That's a great opportunity to excell ... :)
hadar: Officially, three more minutes. I don't know if the volume was lower because we didn't send out a reminder or because it was at 7am EST.
ZCBrian: gotta go and take babies to school - thanks all! We'll try to send out a reminder next time.
hadar: The next one is 4/13/2004 (11a, US/Eastern), which will have west coast US people back with us...
JimFulton: See y'all next time (or on #zope3-dev :)
hadar: On to another long day of work... See you all next time!