transcript of #zope (2004-07-13 7am EST)
hadar: Good morning from Fredericksburg, VA. We're ready to begin, and first up on the agenda is an update on ZPL 2.1 from Jim Fulton. Jim, take it away :-)
JimFulton: Hi,
JimFulton: A while ago, we updated the ZPL to 2.1.
JimFulton: 2.1 differs from 2.0 in that it facilitates the license holder being other than ZC and contributors.
JimFulton: It is meant to be a resuable ZPL.
JimFulton: If you need to pick a license for your Zope-related software, please consider using ZPL 2.1 because:
JimFulton: - A consistent license makes things much easier for consumers of zope software. The fewer licenses Zope users have to conform to, the easier it is to adopt Zope
JimFulton: - The ZPL is a permissive license. For example, it makes your software more widely usable than the GPL.
JimFulton: Zope 3 uses ZPL 2.1, as will Zope 2.8.
JimFulton: Any questions? :)
morphex: i've got one :)
JimFulton: Please ask it :)
MacYET: the main point for me for choosing GPL might be: one may avoid other people selling your own software
kinder: JimFulton: Have I to release the source with ZPL 2.1?
hadar: MacYET: Understood. Of course, you are free to take the result of our work, and those who have signed contributor agreements, and use it any way you like. You just don't want to return the favor...
MacYET: iknow :) most of my stuff is ZPL
JimFulton: kinder, yes
morphex: with these license terms, there are still some things to worry about; acceptable use of trademarks and servicemarks for example,
hadar: MacYET: Excelent, thanks for the setup question then :-)
morphex: there was a discussion on zopezen a while ago, where it was said that things like "zope hosting" etc. on the company website were acceptable,
hadar: morphex: Not really. Trademark stuff would apply even if you used ZPL, so that's not different.
hadar: morphex: Trademark applies to the use of the "name" Zope, not the product Zope. Zope Hosting is fine, because you are describing your use of the Zope product.
morphex: ok
* morphex is listening
hadar: Calling your product ZopeWare might not be, because it might not even be based on Zope (for example). It also can be aimed at confusing the marketplace that you are the provider of Zope itself...
hadar: Our licensing of the trademark is completely free, and we've only ever said no once or twice...
morphex: and the trademark license is perpetual?
morphex: easy to get?
JimFulton: To emphasize: trademark and software licensing issues are independent
hadar: morphex: NO. And that's precisely the point (and why we don't charge). If someone ends up abusing the trademark, we have the right to revoke it, which is in the license itself!
hadar: To date, we have not revoked any of the licenses that we have granted, nor have we threatened anyone yet either...
morphex: ok.. i just had a nasty experience with licenses/contracts so i had to ask
morphex: :)
morphex: thanks for clearing it up
hadar: DING DING DING on topic #1. Mark Pratt, please take away Topic #2, the zope.org Content Group
markbee: ok
markbee: basically most of my time has been taken up understanding what's out there
markbee: as far as docs are concerned
markbee: what's relatively up-to-date and what needs to be removed (or at least links removed)
markbee: most recent pdf is here
markbee: http://zope.org/Members/beehive/zopeorgdocspageV3.pdf/file_view
markbee: this PDF is a kind of a sketch in progress
markbee: showing some of the small changes
markbee: and an example of a new document
markbee: "Contributing / Community Work"
markbee: which is designed to be an overview
markbee: of how people can participate
markbee: the actual text in the PDF is
markbee: just to give an idea of where we are going
d2m: hmm, even zooming into the doc i do not see very much :(
d2m: ahh,m sorry, found the other pages
markbee: that's what less than part time volunteer gets you my friend
markbee: at this point i'm looking for one person to help with a little html design
markbee: for mockups
markbee: and one person who has enough access to set up some wikis
markbee: on Zope.org
markbee: if you want to help than at this time you need to join the
markbee: zope-web mailinglist
markbee: but we will soon have wikis out there that will announce volunteer requests
gimmel_: what does "create link to smtpserver in $ZOPE/lib/python" mean
markbee: not just for the docs section
morphex: i don't think the current site is great, so i can help out with some html/css design markbee
markbee: that would be great
morphex: subscribed :)
JimFulton: Yay!
markbee: nice
markbee: anyone who is part of the systems volunteer group
markbee: able to do some relatively simple requests
markbee: like set up the occasional wiki
JimFulton: markbee, you shouldn't need to be part of the systems group to set up a wiki.
markbee: at this point the only other thing i really need is someone to set up an "Article Link" item
markbee: sorry meant in the Docs section
markbee: not in a personal folder
JimFulton: But, perhaps the systems group needs to unbreak the wiki software on zope.org so this is true. :(
markbee: (the wikis)
markbee: jim:
markbee: what is the state of the zope.org wiki software
markbee: ?
markbee: i remember reading something about the version being a little dated
JimFulton: Other than, it's broke, I don't know.
markbee: would it make sense to ask simon
JimFulton: Well, even much older versions let you create wikis. :/
markbee: for some "draft space"
markbee: and then move over the stuff when its "finalized"
JimFulton: If we can't get wikis working on zope.org, then we should go somewhere else, but that would truly be a shame.
JimFulton: Wikis are all about "drafts".
markbee: can you give us an estimate of how long it will take to figure this out
JimFulton: No
d2m: markbee: sm of zwiki is in #zope-web (later today) - we could talk about upgrade issues (if one knows about wikis he does)
markbee: because i'm only a few days away from needing Wikis
JimFulton: So we need to try to make this a priority.
markbee: how much later? -- i need to get more sleep
markbee: yes
markbee: no wiki -- no fun
d2m: markbee: his timezone is PST
markbee: ok
JimFulton: markbee, as a last resort, you could tell me what wikis you need in the short term and I'll get them created somehow.
JimFulton: Or in the short term.
markbee: ok
gimmel_: im having touble installing smtp service 0.2
markbee: by the way the graffles/pdf's i'm working on will be updated pretty much every week
gimmel_: i says to import some stuff into zope.conf, yet after i have done this, zope will not start
markbee: and until we have a wiki read the archives of the zope-web mailinglist (or subscribe)
JimFulton: Existing wikis work reasonably well, so, if worst comes to worst, we can copy existing wikis and remove the pages in the copies.
markbee: to stay up-to-date
markbee: ok
philiKON: gimmel_, we're having a community chat right now; if you can wait a couple of minutes, that'd be great
gimmel_: sure
markbee: can you set up a Wiki at this Adddress: http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Wiki
JimFulton: Aye aye.
markbee: thanks
markbee: i'll let you know if i run into any trouble
markbee: other than someone writing a simple "Article Link" content type that's it for me right now
markbee: morphex and i should be able to hammer out some drafts
* morphex nods
markbee: thats it for me right now
d2m: markbee: i can do that
markbee: that would be great
markbee: i'll send out a proposal of what fields (what the result) should look like
markbee: might take me till friday though
hadar: DING DING DING. Thanks Mark! On to topic #3, with Jim Fulton leading a discussion of the zope.org Systems Working Group.
JimFulton: Ok, well
JimFulton: I'd say we're still getting organized
JimFulton: We've set up a repository and mailing list to record and discuss confidential aspects system configuration and operation,
JimFulton: We're also setting up the team
JimFulton: The team is still rather small because:
JimFulton: - Team members will generally need file-system access, and
JimFulton: - Team members therefore need to sign an NDA.
JimFulton: The later is about protecting confidential information, not about protecting proprietary software
JimFulton: (AFAIK, there is no proprietary SW on zope.org.)
JimFulton: I'd say that a high priority is finding some people to take leadership of the systems group
philiKON: what does the NDA entail? is it available online?
JimFulton: I volunteered to be PHB (pointy-haired boss) until a leader volunteers.
JimFulton: just a sec ...
JimFulton: http://zope.org/About/agreements/NDA/
philiKON: hanks
JimFulton: Mainly it's about protecting confidential member and system info,
JimFulton: It's a shame that it's such a long read, but it's reasonable AFAICT. :)
JimFulton: So, I'm not sure that PHB makes much sense.
JimFulton: I can't really provide any leadership without spending more time than I should, (I imagine that most people would rather I not get too distracted from Zope 3, Zope 2 and ZODB work.)
JimFulton: I should say much leadership.
JimFulton: I think my role should be someone that Mark and a systems leader (or leaders) can escalate issues to.
JimFulton: So, while progress is being made, I think we have a strong need for some folks to sign up for more leadership of the systems group.
JimFulton: In the mean time, I'll do the best I can with limited time.
JimFulton: Questions? Comments? Suggestions?
WebMaven: How many people have volunteered for leadership so far?
JimFulton: AFAIK, 1, not counting me.
WebMaven: in whatever group?
WebMaven: Ah.
philiKON: if sysadmin help is scarce, i can help out; by i would hardly qualify for a leader, nor do i have the time
philiKON: s/by/but/
JimFulton: We have 4 non-zope folks on the systems group, but AFAIK, none has expressed a desire to lead.
JimFulton: II should say 4 non-ZC folks
JimFulton: I imagibe that things will get clearer as we get more of the systems processes and procedures in place and documented.
hadar: DING DING DING. Thanks Jim. 20 minutes left for any other topics that any of you would like to discuss. Fire away! (he says while ducking) ;-)
kuru: when is the zopebook 2.7 going to be ready?
morphex: heh :)
markbee: i spoke with chris about this and he is still looking for some chapter maintainers
markbee: for key sections of the book
JimFulton: I suppose we need to get to a point that updating the book is part of the process of updating the SW.
rjmunro: Is there any chance of generating some of it from comments in the code, like pythonDoc?
kuru: JimFulton: that would make sense ;)
JimFulton: rjmunro, no, not really
WebMaven: I apologize for getting here late (it's 4:42 am here), but has there already been discussion of information architecture issues (esp. navigation)?
JimFulton: WebMaven, no, I think that would be better discussed on #zope-web
rjmunro: It should be possible to at least get a list of useful functions that you can use from tales python: statements or something.
JimFulton: BTW, markbee, perhaps we should schedule to zope-web chats
JimFulton: rjmunro, sure, but that's different than the zope-book
markbee: ok, but please make the next chat at a later time then 7 A.M. EST
JimFulton: fwiw, in Zope 3, Stephan as taken the approach of providing on-line api documentation that is totally dynamic and reflects the system config.
philiKON: there are products like this for zope2, too
kuru: super
philiKON: DocFinder, iirc
JimFulton: I think that aproach makes a lot of sense for reference docs
rjmunro: Definately sounds like a good idea to me.
hadar: markbee: most chats start at 11am, but then we lose Asia, so we schedule at least one chat per quarter at 7am EST...
markbee: ok
JimFulton: Perhaps the Zope book aought to be in the software CVS repo, so that software authors can update it as they update the sw.
JimFulton: eeek
JimFulton: In the software svn repo. (What was I saying! :)
WebMaven: Hmm.
philiKON: that's a good idea. editing structured text in your favourite text editor is more straight forward and checkin messages are easy to follow
JimFulton: BTW, I'd like to say that I am thrilled with Subversion! It was a fantastic move.
WebMaven: Who owns the copyright on the Zope-Book?
* JimFulton waiting for zope.org to check the copyright ...
JimFulton: zope.org doesn't say. Sigh Waaaaaaa
philiKON: it'd be some mixed thing anyway, wouldn't it, since other people than the authors have been working on it since the book was published on paper
philiKON: ?
WebMaven: If it had been that easy, I wouldn't ahve had to ask. ;-)
JimFulton: I guess we ought to clear that up, but that might be a pain. :(
JimFulton: It's nice that the Python docs are in the Python CVS and are updated as the software is updated.
JimFulton: We really need to get to that place with Zope.
JimFulton: Unfortunately, this may make it harder to leverage the efforts of book authors.
philiKON: also, would it make sense that the book was ZPL (which would be implied by its being in the svn repository)?
JimFulton: I don't know if someone could "publish" standard Zope docs.
WebMaven: I suppose a book PHB could do the checkins from authors.
JimFulton: philiKON, yes, imo
philiKON: JimFulton, that "yes" means that you think it should be ZPL?
philiKON: hmm
JimFulton: Yes
rjmunro: Creative commons liceneses are good for docs.
markbee: i would also talk to chris about this
WebMaven: The book was originally published under the OPL.
WebMaven: With both options (permission of the copyright holder) enabled.
WebMaven: copyright on the print book is New Riders.
WebMaven: Don't know if that means they hold copyright to the original online edition (2.3).
JimFulton: Someday, we need to make this simpler.
JimFulton: An advantage of the ZPL and the contributor's agreement/repo is that copyright and license are pretty unambiguous. :)
hadar: Thanks to everyone for joining in today! Special thanks to people like WebMaven who are on at an ungodly hour :-).
hadar: I believe that the next IRC is scheduled for August 10th, at 11am EST. Look for a more official announcement from Rob Page...