transcript of #zope (2004-08-10 11am-12am EST)
rspzope: DING, Hello everyone! :)
eGenix_2: ChrisW no, Charlie
ChrisW: aha
ChrisW: hence the 2 ;-)
ChrisW: hey Rob :-)
jkocherhans [~jkocherha@hsc178-47.med.utah.edu] entered the room.
zbir: 'lo, all
rspzope:
rspzope: Hello everyone -- let's get started
rspzope: Jim's first with a zope.org update... Jim - I have a very brief update from Mark when you're finished...
TresEquis [~tseaver@206.16.200.250] entered the room.
ChrisW: who's Mark?
rspzope: Pratt -- sorry.
JimFulton: Ah, cool, cause I don't have much to report, I'm afraid.
Wodarski is now known as Woda|lunch
TinoW: regebro: you need "prawn protect"[tm] ;)
JimFulton: I'm looking forward to hearing the update from Mark, :)
JimFulton: I think Shane made some good progress on performance since the last IRC, so things seem to be a bit better.
dataflake [~jens@p50820140.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] entered the room.
ChrisW: what did he do?
JimFulton: Uh, I'm sorry, but I don't remember. :(
TinoW: did not hear much from mark for a long time...
JimFulton: Actually, I think one thing was to not show work items on every page
ChrisW: 'cos it still appears to have random boughts of extreme slowness for no apparent reason
JimFulton: Yup
JimFulton: I'm working on getting more hardware.
ChrisW: yeah, I noticed the Pending link no longer shows how many items are pending
ChrisW: why mroe hardware?
JimFulton: We've gotten the systems group at least a little bit organized.
ChrisW: do we have any indication that more hardware will sotp the chokes?
JimFulton: Because the software is slow.
klm [~user@206.16.200.250] entered the room.
ChrisW: :-/
ChrisW: I guess supplying more hardware is cheaper?
JimFulton: At least in the short term.
ChrisW: (than doing the obvious and fixing the software ;-) )
dataflake: Oh Chris, you volunteer :)
JimFulton: Well, we don't have a lot of people with time to fix the software.
JimFulton: (Sorry this report is disorganized ...)
JimFulton: Ah, one major step forward was tha Tres created a new built-out script.
JimFulton: Ah, one major step forward was that Tres created a new built-out script/mechanism.
JimFulton: I don't know if anyone has had time to try it out.
ChrisW: what does that enable someone to do?
TresEquis: build out the same software as the site runs
JimFulton: This should make it much easier (as in possible) to duplicate the software on another system.
ChrisW: does that include setting up all skins?
ChrisW: (there seems to be a lot of stuff in the custom folder :-/)
JimFulton: People on the systems group (ChrisW, this meand you :), should try this out.
JimFulton: What we also need is a way for people to easily get a copy of the data.
gus1212 [~Scott@bass.ordway.org] entered the room.
ZCBrian: stuff in the custom folder is there to try out fixes to speed things up...
ZCBrian: they should really be backported to the fs / CVS
JimFulton: This would, I think, make it a lot easier for folks to work in the site.
JimFulton: So, anyway, that's some significant progress, thanks to Tres.
JimFulton: Several folks have volunteered to work on the systems group and have submitted NDAs.
JimFulton: No we really need to get the systems group a bit more organized and get working on soe tasks.
goli|away is now known as goli
JimFulton: Oh yeah, and we decided how to prioritize collector items.
JimFulton: Any questions about the systems side of things before Rob relays an update from Mark?
ChrisW: cool, can you expand on that a bit?
JimFulton: I was afraid you were going to ask that.
JimFulton: I think we decided that we were going to focus on critical issues.
JimFulton: There are currently far too many of those though. Dang.
dataflake: that leaves the question, who decided what's critical?
JimFulton: Any other questions?
dataflake: some gardening might be in order
dataflake: might whittle down the list real fast
JimFulton: Yup. We did that a few weeks ago and were down to 3 issues.
dataflake: that's not too bad :)
ChrisW: i ntotal?!
JimFulton: Anybody can volunteer to be a supporter and can garden,
JimFulton: There are currently 16 issues marked critical.
ChrisW: ouch
TresEquis: DING!
ChrisW: mind yer head Tres ;-)
rspzope: Thanks Mr. TimeKeeper :)
TresEquis: I'm on the hook for a PluggableAuthService update
TresEquis: so I introduce....
***TresEquis rolls drums
rspzope: Mark is moving from one country to another so he's pretty busy. He's finished the mockups of the new docs homepage
rspzope: sorry Tres -- busy typing.. gimme one sec
rspzope: which has had some discussion and scrutiny on the zweb list.
rspzope: I've seen early revs but not the final one.
rspzope: Mark tells me he'll have them available RSN for final review/discussion before contemplating implementation.
rspzope: The goal was not to garden nor create/edit/delete content
Switch_ [FcxCy@200.167.210.72] entered the room.
TinoW: bbl
rspzope: Rather, to focus the "front-door experience" (my words, not his) onto content that is useful and relevant.
TinoW left the room ("Client exiting").
***TresEquis rolls drums some more
ChrisW: did the disagreements with Mark's choices for certain aspects get resolved?
zarlazole [~carla@206.16.200.250] entered the room.
***TresEquis rolls drums some more
rspzope: "Resolved" in that as the leader of that effort and failing to identify any vigorous objections he's moving forward
***TresEquis introduces Zac Bir, the product owner for PluggableAuthService
rspzope: imo, for now, progress is more valuable than consensus
rspzope: the hook is coming out for me Chris... :)
***zbir waves meekly
rspzope: I cede the balance of my time to my colleague from Richmond, VA
***ChrisW cheers Zack :-)
ChrisW: -k
JimFulton: zbir?
***rspzope waves to Zac to start typing
zbir: So, PluggableAuthService is getting some work. The included ZODBUserManager will be using the same AuthEncoding module that the current UserFolder/User uses, so migrating an existing stock Zope UserFolder to PAS will be straightforward
ChrisW: what will the migration process look like?
zbir: ZODBRoleManager is getting tidied up so that the Anonymous and Authenticated roles aren't actually managed by the ZODBRM (no point)
***TresEquis roots for resetting all passwords to 123
zbir: I've got an external method that will be plopped into PluggableAuthService/Extensions
zbir: heh
zbir: it will preserve encrypted passwords, and SSHA encrypt plain-text passwords
zbir: no more plain text passwords.
ChrisW: oh, so THEY get set to 123? ;-)
yet1 [~MacYET@stgt-d9bb5c4f.pool.mediaWays.net] entered the room.
zbir: only if you want it to :)
yet1: morning
TresEquis: only for users named chrisw
yet1 is now known as MacYET
zbir: will be checked in shortly on the head.
brentmh [brentmh@yoda.cnx.rice.edu] entered the room.
zbir: also, I'm planning on moving the code for ScriptablePlugin to the PluginRegistry, since it's more generically applicable there, rather than in PluggableAuthService
zbir: (leaving a module alias for existing code)
zbir: After talking with some users about it, I'd like to pull out all the commented code referring to a PAS-level user cache and instead let it fall on the plugins to implement (and maintain!) some cache for whatever they do.
ChrisW: :-(
kaeru left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
zbir: We could beef up the ZODBUserManager with some caching as an example case
TresEquis: the userfactory plugin would be the obvious one
zbir: yup
Switch_ left the room ("[CyberScript]").
TresEquis: but you also need to cache authenticated (and missed) credentials inside some authenticator plugins
zbir: double-yp
TresEquis: because they go across the wire to some external source
zbir: but this isn't really about the direction of PAS. Does it need more direction?
ChrisW: ?
***TresEquis thinks what it needs is more usage ;)
kaeru [~kaeru@219.95.60.244] entered the room.
***ChrisW will be developing a CAS authenticator and secure session thingies some time soon
***zbir yields the floor, pending questions ("pending", heh)
rspzope: DING
***ChrisW is also keen to do some big loud releases, as soon as he gets a chance
rspzope: Zac will be holding a PAS seminar in his house in Richmond this weekend.
JimFulton: Zope 3 update
rspzope: eveyrone is welcome
TresEquis: with beer
zbir: only for people who know how to lay tile
ChrisW: beer there?
rspzope: on to Jim
ChrisW: yay!
sashav [~s@jamlikheten-77-5.ip-pluggen.com] entered the room.
JimFulton: So, we plan to make a Zope X3.0 release candidate on Thursday.
GaryPoster [~gary@206.16.200.250] entered the room.
JimFulton: Hopefully, X3.0 final will land next week.
JimFulton: I have lots of ideas for X3.1. :)
JimFulton: Zope 2 status:
JimFulton: I'd like everyone to give a BIG round of applause for MacYET for making Zope 2.7 and Zope 2.8 releases!
dataflake: yes :)
***JimFulton claps loudly
***zbir claps
ChrisW: yay! go Andreas :-)
MacYET: that#s why i need vacation :)
rspzope:
dataflake: LOL
***klm claps!
TresEquis: YAY
GaryPoster: yay yay
MacYET: stop that!
MacYET: :)
***eGenix_2 claps frantically
TresEquis: We need to make a 2.7.3 pretty quickly ;0
ChrisW: he'll cry ;-)
JimFulton: We plan to have the first Zope 2.8 alpha release in September.
ChrisW: tearful acceptance speeches and all that ;-)
MacYET: tres: will you do the 2.7.3 release?
TresEquis: If need be
JimFulton: I've started fixing ZClasses by writing a doctest for them.
MacYET: otherwise after sept. 5th
JimFulton: We have a Zope 2.7.3 release coming soon :)
TresEquis: I don't know the state of the sessioning code on the 2.7 branch
MacYET: well do what you want :)
MacYET: i'll send you a postcard
TresEquis: Have fun
MacYET: but this session error should be fixed as well
MacYET: i detected serious session problems as well
kinder left the room (quit: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
adel|w left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
JimFulton: Is this session problem new in 2.7?
ChrisW: no mcdonc here today?
TresEquis: mcdonc is onsite with a client today
ChrisW: JimFulton: coupla collectot entries on it, SystemErrors and the like, nassty :-S
TresEquis: in fact, for the next 2 weeks
MacYET: jim: i think it might be to related to changes chrism made in 2.7.1
JimFulton: I suspect that 2.7.3 should focus on the security problem.
JimFulton: Perhaps we can make another release when someone has some time to look at the session problem.
MacYET: this session problem is critical
ChrisW: yep, and then start focussing on sessions for a 2.7.4 release not too long after...
MacYET: not for us but for a lot of people
JimFulton: MacYET, ah, ok
TresEquis: especially for i18n-using Plone types
ChrisW: "lot of people" = all Plone users by the sound of it...
JimFulton: ChrisW, sounds like s good plan to me.
MacYET: switching to dieters transience implementation resolved the issue
ChrisW: grinz we could even try that release often thing ;-)
JimFulton: Can anyone give an update on Five?
TresEquis: 0.1 released last week
MacYET: 1.2.3.4.5
zbir: no, that's the old five
TresEquis: Several new changes since then
zbir: new five is 1.2.5
***BradB progresses hurriedly towards finishing Zope 2 client work, to start pushing Zope 3 :)
TresEquis: including code to bridge Zope2 interfaces into Zope3 world
TresEquis: that one at least isn't merged yet, but Martijn is on vacation
JimFulton: Any questions re Zope status?
TresEquis: CMF 1.5 beta should go out this week
zbir: how's the outlook on ZClasses in general?
ChrisW: TresEquis: will there be another 1.4 release?
MacYET: zclasses must die
TresEquis: ChrisW: yes
JimFulton: Not sure what you mean. I plan to get them working again.
regebro: Dismal outlokos, I hope.
zbir: MacYET: this is the sound of me not disagreeing
kosh: I hope the plan is a bullet and 6 feet of dirt
dataflake: now now
MacYET: to be honest i don't care about zclasses, they are a culprit for me
JimFulton: Perhaps I should mentioned what I said at EuroPython.
MacYET: anyway
dataflake: don't scare jim :)
ChrisW: what did you say at EuroPython?
***ChrisW sees he's not the onyl ZClass lover here ;-)
JimFulton: In the future, developers may prototype through the web, but they won't build TTW products.
JimFulton: Zope 3 will make no attempt to support TTW products.
ChrisW: no ZClasses?
ChrisW: what about the persistent modules stuff?
JimFulton: No ZClasses in Zope 3, unless we dcide to allow Zope 2 ZClasses run in Zope 3.
JimFulton: decide
***TresEquis doesn't want persistent modules
TresEquis: at least not ones which are randomly importable
JimFulton: persistent modules will be there primarily for prototyping and primarily for prototyping adapters and utilities.
TresEquis: but wouldn't mind having them available as "libraries" for TTW scripting
kosh: what will it take to get a zope2 products data to work in zope3? I am fine with changing my product to make it compatible but I need to keep the data intact and writing some kind of export and import feature would be a royal pain if I could not just export a zexp and have it import into zope3
JimFulton: They will be supported only for prototyping.
dataflake: But you know how it goes, Jim. Many people will stupidly push it into production :)
JimFulton: dataflake, I can't help that.
TresEquis: kosh: you need to check out Five
regebro: With things like schemas and other stuff, much can be done with little effort. That makes ZClasses less important. For me, CPSSchemas is what ZClasses should have been.
ChrisW: what about people who currently build solutions out of ZODB-based glue like ZPT's and Script Python's in Zope 2?
JimFulton: It will be easy to move these to the file system.
ChrisW: (oh, and ZSQL methods)
kosh: what is five?
MacYET: the only one who loves ZClasses is Dieter
ChrisW: Zope 3 + Zoep 2
ChrisW: JimFulton: How will TTW development happen with file-system based glue stuff like that?
TresEquis: kosh: http://codespeak.net/z3/five
JimFulton: ChrisW, in Zope 3, developers will use modules or persistent modules rather than script-python.
ChrisW: yay :-)
JimFulton: Scripters will use python libraries (as envisioned by Evan Simpson a while back) rather than script-python.
kosh: so far in about 4 years I have not broken data compatibility once on my product as I have upgraded to new versions of zope and I want to keep it that way so upgardes remain seamless for customers
alekibango left the room (quit: No route to host).
JimFulton: We still don't know what shape Z2 to Z3 migration will take yet.
kosh: ok
ChrisW: JimFulton: How will TTW development happen with file-system based glue stuff like that?
JimFulton: We are still getting experience with Z3 and exploting integration through projects like Five.
kosh: so far I am just hoping it will work since it if doesn't it could break the community as many won't upgrade because of backwards compatibility
JimFulton: ChrisW, remember that we make a distiction (in Z3) between developer and scriptor.
regebro: kosh: ZODB compatibility could be hard to do, but worst case would be that you have to make import/export scripts.
JimFulton: Scripters will work TTW.
zbir: sorry, didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, Jim (unless this has been valuable) :)
efge: I'm not sure "upgrading" is worth it though, that'd mean keeping so much Zope 2 cruft, what's the point ?
kosh: regebro: the import export scripts on complex objects would be a major pain in the neck
JimFulton: Developers will work on the file system, except when they are prototyping.
TresEquis: regebro: Five will at least allow you to use the component architecture to write them.
efge: I prefer reimplementing stuff cleanly in Z3
TresEquis: including the Z3 filesystem sync code
***dataflake supports efge
kosh: practicality beats purity :)
TresEquis: kosh: the cost of that short-term choice piles up over time
efge: kosh: unfortunaltely yes :)
ChrisW: was someoen supposed to DING at some point?
TresEquis: retro-DING
***dataflake hits chrisw
dataflake: DING
JimFulton: One thing I'd like to do is finish the file-system synchronization architecture from Z3 and getting it working with Z2. I suspect that this will provide a much cleaner basis for migration (and archival) that zexp files.
***TresEquis never wants to see another .zexp file
adel|w [~adel@62-101-126-223.fastres.net] entered the room.
kinder [~kinder@62-101-126-223.fastres.net] entered the room.
TresEquis: "Persistence means never being able to forget your mistakes" ;)
JimFulton: :)
JimFulton: Id like to change subjects.
JimFulton: And make a shameless commercial announcement.
JimFulton: ZC is hiring.
***sashav enjoys a coke and the discussion
dataflake: Jim, how could you :)
TresEquis: heh
JimFulton: We're looking for some good Zope 2 and especialy Zope3 developers.
***TresEquis prods jens: "Come baaaack!"
dataflake: LOL
zbir: "Come back, Shane!"
dataflake: hey, just today i thought i made a mistake :P
***CSWookie REALLY wishes he'd graduated on time now.
JimFulton: We're beginning our transition to Z3 and I think this is going to be an especially exciting time to work here,
sgeigerbot: zbir: I'm back.
rspzope: DING
rspzope: We finished the agenda.
sgeigerbot: JimFulton: I'm not qualified...but I'm curious: What pay range? and for how much zope experience?
rspzope: thanks for the session!!
JimFulton: http://www.zope.com/Corporate/Careers.html :)
rspzope: I'll send an announcement for the next IRC and an invitation for agenda topics later today.
rspzope: I'll reiterate thanks and praise to the zope.org team and MacYET for some specific contributions....
***rspzope encourages clapping
MacYET: contribs?
MacYET: i am not guilty
***JimFulton claps
GoClick [~goclick@68.149.192.255] entered the room.
rspzope: AND, last but not least to Zac for opening his home to the global zope community this weekend
MacYET: who is rsp
MacYET: ?
zbir: rob
ChrisW: Rob Page
MacYET: ah :)
dataflake: the man behind the curtain
TresEquis: pay no attention
dataflake: :)
rspzope: hey!